In this episode, Marydale Ma speaks with Heather Debrecini about what it means to come home to yourself after years of holding everything together for everyone else. Heather’s path wound through search and rescue, law enforcement, and single motherhood before her body began quietly insisting on a different way of living — a season of illness that medicine couldn’t fully explain, and that ultimately became her greatest teacher. We explore what she calls “radical selfishness,” the surrender that comes from realizing you are both nothing and everything, and the unexpected way Kriya Yoga found her just six minutes from home. This conversation is an invitation to consider that healing may not always look like the absence of struggle, and that divinity may be less about escaping our daily lives than about learning, moment by moment, to sanctify them.
About Our Guest
Heather Debreceni is a spiritual mentor, author, retreat facilitator, ordained reverend, shamanic practitioner, and devoted Kriyavan. Before entering spiritual mentorship, she served as a Deputy Sheriff in Florida and later owned a divorce coaching practice supporting mothers through high-conflict divorce. After developing multiple chronic illnesses and reaching a point where conventional medicine offered few answers, Heather began searching for a deeper path to healing. That search led her to Kriya Yoga International, where she was initiated in Monroe, Washington, in August 2024. She credits Kriya Yoga with profoundly transforming her physical, emotional, and spiritual life.
Episode Transcript
Marydale Ma: Om, Om, Om and Pranam. Welcome to you on this beautiful day to another episode of Living in Joy, the podcast of the Women’s Sangha and Ministry of Kriya Yoga. Each conversation reminds us that awakening is not reserved for monasteries or mountaintops. It unfolds quietly through our families, our work, our joys, and our losses, and often through the very experiences we would never ever have chosen. Today’s guest, Heather Ma, beautifully embodies that truth. Before we meet Heather, let’s take a moment and begin by making sure your phone or other devices are silenced, and then check to make sure you’re comfortable. Find your breath. And maybe if you feel comfortable, close your eyes, and feel yourself breathing with ease in and out of your nose.
As each breath helps you to calm down and slow down. I know it took effort to show up here, but this is a gift that you’re about to give yourself, and your attention is required. So bring yourself into this space completely, feeling relaxed, comfortable, and in the divine presence of your own breath. Father, Divine Mother, Beloved Lord, we humbly bow to our Guru Dev Paramahansa Hariharananda, to our divine Guruji, Paramahansa Prajnanananda, and our Paramguru, Paramahansa Yogananda. We thank you, our gurus, for bringing us together on this day. May this conversation become an offering. May every word arise from truth. May every silence be filled with your presence. May we remember that every experience, joyful or difficult, can become a doorway leading us closer to you. Guide us, inspire us, and keep us ever aware of your loving presence. Om Peace, Om Peace, Om Peace. Amen. And now, it is my privilege and pleasure to introduce to you, Heather. It is our honor, Heather, to have you here today. Welcome.
Heather Ma: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Marydale Ma: Absolutely, it is truly our joy. Now, we’ve got a lot to share today, Heather, and before we take a deep dive into your kind of magnificent journey, I have to say.
Heather Ma: Thank you.
Marydale Ma: It kind of went from survival to surrender. And I’d like our listeners to gain an understanding of your roots and where you came from. So let’s start from here. What kind of a little girl were you? What first kind of filled your heart with joy?
Heather Ma: I was a very shy little girl, often found hiding behind my mom. And, ah, what filled my life with joy was time with nature, camping with my family. Um, eventually, I ended up going into search and rescue and spending time out in the nature searching for people. But it was always still just a refuge for me.
Marydale Ma: That’s wonderful. And did you grow up in a household where spirituality was, um, prevalent?
Heather Ma: No. My stepfather, who I was raised by, and my mother, was a confirmed Catholic, but he didn’t practice.
Marydale Ma: Okay.
Heather Ma: He constantly said that religion was, you know, a crutch, and that, um, it was weak people who were religious. And but I always felt like that wasn’t correct. And even at a very young age, when we would go to Catholic church, I was constantly in trouble because I would try to bow to the priests. And I didn’t understand where that came from. And neither did my family. And it just continued throughout my life. Even as I got older, when I was younger, I would constantly find myself trying to bow to any religious figure. And, um, but as I got older and life caught in the way, I kind of stopped listening to that instinct because I’d been told repeatedly that you don’t need to do that. Like, that’s not okay. It’s not appropriate. So I did eventually stop, but now I’m back to doing that again.
Marydale Ma: And everybody else along with you.
Heather Ma: Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Oh.
Marydale Ma: That’s, that’s very beautiful. And I’m sure you mentioned how much nature appealed to you and felt like it was kind of your happy place and maybe even your cathedral, because Mother Nature is pretty profound that way. So that had to be a blessing.
Heather Ma: It was.
Marydale Ma: Now, your life has really taken some remarkable turns. Ah, you’ve been a deputy sheriff, you’re a wife, a mother, a grandmother, an author, a minister, and a mentor. When you look back at all those roles, which we will do, how did you ever turn to law enforcement?
Heather Ma: It was, um, divine intervention, I think. My family was definitely more on the wrong side of the law growing up. And, um, I had a friend that liked a boy who was in search and rescue. And she said, I want to go to be around this boy. Will you come with me, so I don’t have to go alone. And I went, and that was my first experience with law enforcement from a positive aspect. And it was something that just clicked with me, that just deeply inside, I felt like this is what I need to be doing. And despite a lot of opposition from my family, I continued with that journey and eventually created a career from that. But yeah, it was, it was a saving divine intervention for me, for sure.
Marydale Ma: How interesting. And you actually became then a deputy sheriff.
Heather Ma: Correct. Yes.
Marydale Ma: And what was that like in your life?
Heather Ma: It saved me in a lot of ways because it taught me how to be strong in who I am as an individual. It taught me how to protect myself and others. It taught me how to… um, have firm boundaries while still having some compassion. But it also separated me from my soul in a lot of ways because I had to learn how to harden myself, that softer voice inside that said, like, there’s more, you could be doing more, um, just to survive in that environment. And it was like that double-edged sword. So part of it was very enlightening, and I got to see all sides of humanity, and parts of it were damaging and created chaos within my body because of the pushing down of my natural responses to be compassionate, to be quiet, um, to be observant. And so it was, it was good and bad.
Marydale Ma: Sounds like you put on some pretty strong armor to protect yourself.
Heather Ma: Yes. Yes.
Marydale Ma: And that role truly did shape you in many ways. Now, how long were you in law enforcement?
Heather Ma: I started in search and rescue when I was 16. And then I took a break when I had my children for about six years. And then I went back, and then I was in law enforcement again for about 10 years before I retired.
Marydale Ma: Okay. Oh, very good. So you, during that time, were married, had children. And, um, obviously, your, ah, life was very complicated through those years, I’m sure.
Heather Ma: Yes.
Marydale Ma: Was it difficult for you to go back to law enforcement after being, um, a mom at home?
Heather Ma: No, I think it made me more effective, because one of the things that I realized — I, ah, in the 10-year span, I worked dedicated in corrections.
Marydale Ma: Okay.
Heather Ma: And what I quickly realized was that, um, there was a distinct lack of loving but firm parenting with a lot of the people that I came in contact with in that environment.
Marydale Ma: Hmm.
Heather Ma: And being a parent allowed me to use those skills that I used with my children and how to communicate, how to affect naturally occurring consequences that are not harmful, that are in a protected environment, and show that it is okay to listen to authority when the authority is just and it’s not oppressive. And I think that that was one of the benefits of being a parent, and especially with my parental philosophies, coming into that environment.
Marydale Ma: That’s very powerful. So you were a teacher even then, which was beautiful. You spent so many years, Heather, helping other people navigate some of the most painful seasons in their lives. I’m curious, who was taking care of Heather during those years?
Heather Ma: Ah, no one. No. Um, God was definitely always — right. But, um, on a human level, no one, even I wasn’t.
Marydale Ma: Yes. Yes.
Heather Ma: My natural instinct was to push aside my needs. And I think that’s very common, um, because there was always something that had to be done. My children needed a roof over their head. By that time, I was a single mother. And my children needed a roof over their head, and they needed food to eat. And, um, that took precedence over what Heather’s body needed. And so I really pushed down what my needs were, and it affected my body the entire time. I was just slowly getting sicker and sicker and sicker because of that.
Marydale Ma: You know, so often the women who appear the strongest are quietly carrying the heaviest burdens. And obviously that was starting to transpire in your life. Well, without folks focusing on any of that diagnosis, because that is personal and private for you, would you take us back to that season in your life?
Heather Ma: To the season of the illness. Okay. Um, initially, it was — um, and I can say this because it was a misdiagnosis — it was misdiagnosed perimenopausal, early onset perimenopause. And all of the symptoms that I had were just associated with that. So when I went to the doctor, the answer was, you’re just going through perimenopause, lose weight, and it’ll be fine. And you’ll be fine. Um, that went on for about 10 years of being told that.
Marydale Ma: Yeah.
Heather Ma: And, as I was, you know, I had a healthy diet. I was vegan. I exercised. I was hiking at, you know, 10, 11,000 feet, 13 miles a weekend. Like, I was healthy and active, but I couldn’t lose weight. And eventually, when we moved from Colorado to Washington state, I realized — and this was internal, I didn’t know what was happening — that I had a lot of brain fog, that I was really having trouble, um, regulating my emotions, that, um, I couldn’t really remember everything that was happening throughout each day. And it really wasn’t until after that we realized that, and I went to the doctor. And again, it was just, here’s the medication, which is — and I’m not against Western medicine, it was just that was the answer that I got — here’s some medication, you’re still perimenopausal, and that’s what’s causing this. And, um, it wasn’t until I had used all of my emergency medication — I have lung issues, emergency medication — and didn’t even realize that I had, that I went to the doctor, and finally they sent me to see an immunologist who realized how bad things were, and all these side effects were due to a lack of oxygen. So I really was not able to get enough air. Um, so that was the journey to, um, finally discovering what was happening for my body, and that it was just this, you know — and they basically said, we really don’t have a medical reason why your body is doing this, but are you stressed? And that was their question.
Marydale Ma: Oh, gosh.
Heather Ma: Yeah. So, yeah.
Marydale Ma: And what did your days look like during that period? You were still mothering, and were you working also?
Heather Ma: Ah, I was working. I had started a business as a divorce coach. So I had clients. Um, I was traveling. And to anybody, I looked perfectly normal. I’m, you know — what I’ve learned now is common, I masked. So I found ways to explain away, like if I yawned, it was because I was tired, not because I was actually not getting enough oxygen. Um, and my family never once saw any interruption in me being mom, wife, you know, any of those things. I still continued to do everything. Except for now, sometimes I would not be able to control my emotions. And I would say something like — to my husband, he would say something to me, I would get really angry, I would say something back and immediately apologize. Because it was like, as soon as it came out of my mouth, I knew that it wasn’t me. And I would say, like, I don’t understand what’s happening. Like, this isn’t who I am, and I don’t know why I’m having these problems. And so that’s really the only indication that anybody had was that lack of ability to control my emotions.
Marydale Ma: That’s crazy. But now on the inside, Heather, you were very well aware, obviously, of how poorly you were managing in the world. Did you feel as though you were beginning to grieve, like, your independence, your identity, or something even deeper through that time?
Heather Ma: Yes. And I don’t know that I would have even acknowledged it then. It wasn’t until it really got extreme, like when I said I would apologize, that I really came to terms with how deeply I was different from who I was on the inside versus what was coming out of my mouth. And I was grieving… the loss of that Heather, that little girl who was creative and artistic and was able to empathize with other people, who was kind and caring. And I grieved that part of Heather, because there was this hardening of me that progressed, even though I was no longer in that area of work, that I just couldn’t let go, couldn’t let go of. So I was constantly looking for threats in everybody that I came in contact with, still looking for threats in the environment around me, still overreacting to minor incidences like a car accident. Um, you know, traffic, not even infractions, just, you know, road courtesy — like, I would get really upset by it. And I just couldn’t let it go. And so I was grieving the fact that this was who I had become — this hyper-vigilant person who was quick to anger and who couldn’t function normally. I even would say, like, I couldn’t go work in an office, because I couldn’t trust myself to be around other people, because I was worried about how I would react to them.
Marydale Ma: That had to be so incredibly difficult. You basically had lost a lot of your control. And I’m thinking, as you were speaking, that I’m sure there are women out there that have experienced a season when life quietly whispered, you know, I just can’t keep living the way I’ve always lived. Something’s got to change. And do you remember when that moment hit you?
Heather Ma: You know, it wasn’t actually until years later. So I was sick, and I realized — when we finally got some diagnosis and were able to start to manage it, there was lots of, you know, ICU stays in between, and I was very ill, and it was a struggle for about — six years of me just up and down, no explanation other than, your body is just — your immune system is just completely out of whack. You know, it was to the point where it was catastrophic, and I was having cascading diseases and, you know, symptoms. And, um, my marriage was suffering as a result of it. And I no longer had a business because I couldn’t function in the world. And, you know, I couldn’t be dependent upon to do anything, because the second I would get stressed, my body would completely go out of whack. And I was in therapy, and I was talking to my therapist, and I said, you know, I think I’ve had enough. Like it was just like a soul-deep, like, screaming enough. And I said — I told her I had spent my entire life being everything to everybody and ignoring who I really am, to do that. And I said — and this is something, like, even now I can’t believe that it came out, because it was so angry and so fiery — and just, you know, I said, I just want to burn the whole world to the ground. Like, I was that angry. And she said — she just sort of looked at me, and she just took a deep breath, and she says, well, why can’t you?
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: And it wasn’t like I thought, oh, why can’t I just go out and burn the whole world to the ground? My first thought was, why can’t I be myself? And that’s the moment when things shifted for me. And so then I really spent time thinking about who I am deeply. You know, a lot of self-reflection, hours and hours and hours of it, right? Um, and self-compassion. And saying, I got to this place because there were all of these circumstances that led up to it, and none of them are wrong. I was doing what I needed to do so to survive, to make sure that my children survived. And there’s nothing wrong with anything that I did. It was literally what was needed to get me to this point.
Marydale Ma: Right.
Heather Ma: But underneath all of that, who am I? And I am that shy girl. That loves her mother, and was compassionate and empathetic and kind and caring. And all the rest of it was just background noise. So I started practicing what I call, you know, radical selfishness. And it’s radical in the sense that it completely defies the definition of selfishness. And it says, I’m going to love myself more than I love anybody else. And I’m going to be devoted to myself more than I’m devoted to anything else, with the knowledge that myself and who I am is God. And just keeping that focus on how do I honor the God that’s in me? How do I honor the God that is that sweet little girl? Like, how do I honor and have compassion for that being that I came here to be? And that changed everything. I was able to, you know, not just extend it to myself, but to my family, to the people I came in contact with. And that started just before I got initiated, which is — I think the masters coming in and saying, like, this is where your real path is. It didn’t get as developed as it is now, but that’s where that started, in that fiery moment of saying this is what I’m going to do.
Marydale Ma: So then, Heather, I recognize in you so much passion. And certainly that moment when you discovered that it was okay for you to love yourself in this way had to be such an aha moment. But I’m going to ask you to reflect for us, if you could, with yogic mind, if you can see God’s hand, even during the most difficult periods, the most difficult seasons of your life, as you reflect back, because we know karma is the thing that molds us. So tell us a little bit about that.
Heather Ma: I think in the beginning, I didn’t see it that way. It took a while for me to fully come round in the thinking. But it was a realization that every single moment in my life was never about me. It was always about… Um, God, a choice to lean into God or away from God. It was always about being God for other people and how I interacted with them. So either leaning into that or coming away from it. Every moment that I was allowed to be a teacher, every moment that I was allowed to be a parent, that was all God. It was never about me. It was about, ah, the impact that it had on those other individuals.
Marydale Ma: Wonderful.
Heather Ma: And there were times where I even realized that there were moments where I could have leaned in or leaned away. And when I leaned away, my life became chaos. But the second I even did a fraction of a lean in, everything calmed down. And so it was just in that reflection that I was able to see there wasn’t a single moment that happened in my life where that wasn’t true, where if I leaned in, everything was calm, everything was peaceful. Um, and I was able to function and be authentic and be true to who I am. And every moment that I leaned away, there was a hard lesson that needed to be learned. And it was needed for me and everybody else around me. So there wasn’t anything wrong with it. It was still part of the teaching, the learning, and it was still part of God. It was just — sometimes you have to struggle. You can’t have light without dark, right? So, yeah.
Marydale Ma: Of course. Great. That is great. And you know, you were talking about reflection, and it brought to my mind that I think so many of us discover along our path that grace is often way clearer in the rearview mirror than through the windshield.
Heather Ma: Beautiful.
Marydale Ma: That’s what happens to us. But that was a very wonderful answer. I thank you for that. And now I know that along your path, you were searching for answers. And when you reached a place where the medicine had done all it could, and then you had this wonderful aha moment of changing your thinking — is that when you unexpectedly came across that, ah, book that you mentioned, the Sudarshan Kriya?
Heather Ma: Yes, it is. Yeah. I had already had the moment with my therapist, and it wasn’t long after that. It was just — going to readjust really quickly — it wasn’t long after that. It was, um, you know, maybe within days of that. And, I was reading — I was looking on Amazon actually for a book, any book, because I read a lot. Um, and the book Breathe by James Nestor came up, and he was talking about this form of yoga. That I knew nothing about, other than he talked about going into a basement, listening to a CD, you know, sweating profusely, then being really cold. And I was like, what is this thing? So then I did, you know, what any self-respecting modern person would do. I Googled it.
Marydale Ma: Yeah.
Heather Ma: And that brought me to — um, it came up with Kriya Yoga.
Marydale Ma: Yeah.
Heather Ma: And then I looked to say, like, how can I learn Kriya Yoga? And there was an ashram six minutes from my house.
Marydale Ma: Uncanny, yes.
Heather Ma: Yeah, it is. Yes, that was definitely divine leading there. It was, it was for sure, because we didn’t move to this house until 2020. And, um, and this found it.
Marydale Ma: Fantastic, so you can say then with a lot of —
Heather Ma: This happened in 2024, but I found it.
Marydale Ma: — excitement that this, finding the ashram, kind of changed everything.
Heather Ma: Oh, first it was, even the decision to change everything, I lacked direction. Um, even in all of my spiritual study, I still had no answers for — and this was a question that had bothered me since I was a child. They talk about Jesus talking to God, and that he could hear him. And I could never understand the mechanics of that. Like I talked, I prayed, I begged.
Marydale Ma: Yes, yes.
Heather Ma: Throughout my life. Um, but I never heard God answer. And it wasn’t until I was initiated that I finally heard. And that was such a powerful experience for me that — one, I will never forget that deep bliss that I experienced when I was initiated, and every time I’ve meditated since. It’s not like I had it, like a peak experience and then it was gone. It was there, and it’s been there continuously. Since I was initiated. And I feel so fortunate that, despite how busy life can be, that it has been that solid foundational rock to my experience, and that guiding force and light in every step that I’ve taken. If I have a question now, if someone asks me a question and I don’t know the answer, I don’t try to fake it now. I just say, you know what, I’m just going to meditate on this and I’ll get back to you. And then I go and I practice, see what comes up, and then I come back. And if nothing else, my mind is clearer and able to compute faster for the answer, if no other thing. But, um, so that’s how, like, prevalent even now, when someone asks me a question, I say, I’m going to have to get back to you and just meditate on this for a while. I’ll let you know what the answer is.
Marydale Ma: That’s great. Well, I wonder if you can answer this without meditating. Do you believe you found Kriya, or did Kriya find you?
Heather Ma: Oh, Kriya found me for sure. Yes. I think initially I would have said I found Kriya.
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: Right.
Marydale Ma: Yeah, of course, of course.
Heather Ma: But in practice, I realized, and in everything that’s come since then, I realized I had zero hand in this — Kriya found me exactly the way it was supposed to and when it was supposed to.
Marydale Ma: Ah, yeah. Yes, even if it appears like a coincidence, sometimes the divine orchestration greatly unfolds right in front of our eyes.
Heather Ma: Correct.
Marydale Ma: It’s pretty beautiful.
Heather Ma: Yeah. It is.
Marydale Ma: And your initiation was, um, at the temple — in the ashram, which is in Monroe. And, um, you now frequent the ashram. And do you do seva there? What is your, ah, relationship to the ashram now?
Heather Ma: I try to go as much as I can. Ah, definitely am not able to every week, but mostly that’s because I travel a lot now, which is a side benefit of the Kriya practice, um, that my health has improved greatly. Um, but I definitely, unless I’m completely out of the state, I attend as seva every initiation, which I highly recommend to anybody. Um, because I learn something every time. And I do that both days of every initiation that I can, which is most of them they do here. And then we have other different community projects that I’ve helped, you know, kind of stepped in. And I say “I” — not I, but the big I, right?
Marydale Ma: Right.
Heather Ma: But stepped in — definitely been guided to helping in the community with community dinners and, you know, helping spread the word of Kriya at any event that presents itself, just going and being present to show support. So it’s been — there is a lot of opportunities. I think, at least from a Western perspective, ah, initially I was really worried about imposing myself into anything. Um, and what I’ve learned is that if you just sit and listen, opportunities present themselves.
Marydale Ma: Oh, absolutely.
Heather Ma: Yeah, and that’s what I’ve found — you don’t always have to push. It’ll come right to you. Yeah.
Marydale Ma: That’s so true. And as I listened to you, Heather, I’m really struck that it seems life wasn’t simply inviting you to become healthy again. It sounds to me like it was inviting you to become someone, well, entirely different. Do you agree?
Heather Ma: Absolutely. Well, yes and no. I was always who I am.
Marydale Ma: Of course.
Heather Ma: I just forgot. So it invited me to remember. And I think that is the biggest takeaway. So I am still the same person that I was inside, um, but the outside is so much different. And I think that’s because the outside now reflects the inside.
Marydale Ma: Perfect. Perfect. You know, so many of us will pray to God to please remove a difficulty, whatever it might manifest as in our life. As you look back, Heather, do you see your illness as an obstacle, or as one of your greatest spiritual teachers?
Heather Ma: Greatest spiritual teacher. It floors people all the time when I talk about it, and I say it was the best thing that ever happened to me. The best thing. It not only taught me how to honor this body and what that truly means, and to acknowledge that it is a divine creation, and everything that it holds within it is part of my path. And so none of it is wrong. None of it is bad. It’s all just more opportunity to learn and grow. And it also brought me to a point of understanding that every trauma that I experienced or was part of — in this life, is reflected in my body. And the reason for that is because every trauma presented an opportunity to learn and to lean in.
Marydale Ma: Beautiful.
Heather Ma: And the more I lean, the less impact it has on my body. So the illness is still in this body. It may go away one day. It may not. I have zero attachment to that, because it’s just what is happening to this body in this time.
Marydale Ma: Right.
Heather Ma: That’s it.
Marydale Ma: Beautiful.
Heather Ma: But I know that as I move forward — we’re all, you know, as soon as we’re born, we’re dying, right? So this is just a temporary part of it.
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: And every step that I take to lean in to my faith and to the practice is an opportunity for this body to just break free from that attachment and the pain that comes with, you know, I’m so sick. This body is so sick. It doesn’t really matter anymore. It’s just part of the story. It’s part of the lesson.
Marydale Ma: Well, that is great. And it really, as we’ve talked from the minute we started until now, I’m feeling this kind of underpinning of Ishvara Pranidhana, of surrender, in everything that has finally manifested for you. This is a big part of the… miraculous. And that word means different things to different people. What has surrender come to mean for you, Heather?
Heather Ma: I think it’s come to mean, to me, acknowledging that every part of my existence is not about me. And I was recently having a conversation with my mom, who’s also a Kriyavan, and I said, it’s this realization that I am nothing.
Marydale Ma: Great.
Heather Ma: And not in the sad, you know, downtrodden way of “I am nothing.” It’s a very powerful ability to say, I am nothing because I am everything. And that level of surrender is a gift that I cherish. The ability to say, I am nothing, and I don’t matter — but I do. That knowledge of it, right?
Marydale Ma: Right.
Heather Ma: So it’s not, again, not like a sad thing. It’s definitely a deep, peaceful, um, knowing that just — that I, Heather, doesn’t really matter.
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: It’s what Heather is used to do in this world that makes a difference. And that’s what surrender means to me. That answers the question.
Marydale Ma: That’s beautiful. Oh, yes, it’s a beautiful thing. And, you know, Guruji often reminds us that, ah, practicing Kriya is not something that we merely sit down and practice. It’s something that we become, and that changes everything. And it sounds to me like you now have merged with practice. And, of course, Kriya is merging together and recognizing who we are — who am I. And toward the beginning of our conversation, you were questioning who am I. And now you know. And that is just a really beautiful thing.
Heather Ma: Yeah.
Marydale Ma: Not only do you know, but you’re embracing it through — as our Ishvara Pranidhana — through surrender, which is just, it’s a very beautiful thing. And speaking of beautiful things, Heather, you wear many, many beautiful hats. You’re still wife, mother, grandmother, mentor, friend, teacher. Ah, you own your business. You’re busy all the time. You work with the ashram. And yet… you now live a God-centered life that has given you wings. Many women, ah, that are out there and who may be listening to us right this minute, wherever they are, and may feel that they don’t have enough time to be spiritual — life is too busy, families need them, work demands them. What would you lovingly say to that woman?
Heather Ma: That — and I think you summed it up in the beginning — that divinity is not reserved for monasteries. Divinity is best expressed in our daily life. And every action that you take, if you keep God as the focus in that action, and that loving compassion, every action is living a godly life. So caring for your children, that’s being godly, because they are God. Caring for your spouse, the same applies there. Caring for others in your community, it all applies. So instead of focusing on, I don’t have time because I’m doing all of these other things, the focus, at least for me, shifted to — every bit of my time is focused on God, because everything that I do is about God and about honoring God in everybody that I come in contact with. Good, bad, or indifferent. If someone doesn’t like me, that’s God.
Marydale Ma: Right.
Heather Ma: That’s still a moment to lean in. And so it’s just acknowledging that you don’t —
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: I mean, yes, you need to practice, because that helps you get there.
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: Right. And it helps you stay there, because when you stop practicing, then you kind of lose that connection. Right. But the more you practice, and the more you start bringing that practice into your daily life, then it becomes this continuous flow of God consciousness, really — I mean, because you’re aware that God is in everything. And that’s, I think, more the goal than “I need to set aside four, six hours a day to meditate.” It’s how can I bring that philosophy and practice into every single interaction in my day?
Marydale Ma: Right. Right. We don’t practice being a yogi. We are a yogi, which is completely different.
Heather Ma: Correct.
Marydale Ma: And if I’m hearing you right, you’re saying that we shouldn’t escape our lives. We should sanctify them.
Heather Ma: Correct.
Marydale Ma: And that’s just a, ah, beautiful, beautiful way to live, remembering God in every breath. Now, Heather, I know that you guide others through healing, whether it’s trauma, transformation, awakening. What have the people you’ve served taught you about God?
Heather Ma: That God is in every moment with those people. It comes back to that same philosophy — that I’m learning through their struggles just as much as I learned through mine. And I think that’s the beauty of all of us living a different experience — that when we interact with one another, we can either lean into seeing God in what they’re experiencing, or we can put up our defenses against it, and that’s them and this is me. Um, so everything that I’ve learned in every interaction is, if I can set myself, you know, ego Heather, aside and say, what is God showing me in this moment for them? What do they need in this moment? And how can I be an instrument for God to them in that moment? And that has been the biggest learning experience — is learning how to keep that wall down and keep Heather back, and just let myself, you know, be present, that my true self be present for them. And that’s, that’s the learning in it, and everything is that choice we’re all making. Everybody in every interaction is making with each other is that choice to either lean in and take the shields down, or to step back and put them up. And I think that’s what I’ve learned the most.
Marydale Ma: Boy, that’s great. Now, do you think through all of this that your definition of healing has changed?
Heather Ma: Yes.
Marydale Ma: How so?
Heather Ma: Um, I used to think that healing was physical. And there is, obviously, there’s physical healing of the body, right?
Marydale Ma: Of course.
Heather Ma: We live in reality, so there’s obviously physical healing of the body. But I’ve realized that healing is so much deeper than that — that we are all souls healing one another or hurting one another. And even in the hurting, we’re healing, because there’s learning that’s happening.
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: We should try to avoid that, obviously — that’s the goal. But just in learning that, you know, what came to me was — soul healer was what came up for me. We’re all soul healers. We’re all energetic beings who have the capacity to heal one another.
Marydale Ma: That’s beautiful.
Heather Ma: And so, and sometimes that manifests physically too. But really, it’s that soul connection and working to heal those karmic interactions with one another, that’s where real healing happens.
Marydale Ma: Beautiful. Well, I think as we begin to conclude our wonderful conversation that I’ve enjoyed so very much, I’d like to just ask you a couple of questions from the heart, from my heart to your heart, Heather. And there are no right answers, obviously. But the first one that arises for me is, what has surprised you the most about God?
Heather Ma: How accepting God is. You know, I am a multi-faith person. And, you know, my Christian self says, there’s only one God. And then, ah, the intellectual part of me that studies — has studied many religions, right? In spiritual faiths and practices. And so it’s the acceptance that God has no skin in the game as far as, like, what it is that I want to study, because it’s all the same. So there’s just this acceptance of it. So I think that was the most surprising thing for me, was that all that judgment was really coming from myself.
Marydale Ma: Great. And what has surprised you the most about Heather?
Heather Ma: Her deep capacity for selflessness and compassion. I think, um, I used to always think that people were good, until I started seeing people doing bad. And then for a long time I thought people are bad and they do harm. And now I realize that that self-compassion and that self-love is there, and it’s able to expand to the self that is in all of us. And so I think that was the biggest surprise for me, is that I was right all along. Yeah.
Marydale Ma: That’s so, so sweet and true. So true. And when do you feel the closest to Divine Mother? Does she play a role in your practice?
Heather Ma: You know, my initial faith was in Christianity, and so I always saw Mary from a Christian lens. And it hasn’t been until the last two years, really, that I started to realize that — the Divine Mother, whether it’s Mary or in the Hindu faith or any faith, you know, that Mother figure, that Divine Mother figure, is actually just one and the same. And it is sort of discovering that the duality that we place is really our own mind doing that, because for whatever reason, that’s what we need to do. But I’ve learned to start… celebrating the feminine more, because I really suppressed that. And I think that’s the Divine Mother coming through. And I found myself more drawn to that level of devotion to that feminine side of things. And that is definitely the Divine Mother in things. Um, so that’s my relationship — it’s still blooming and blossoming. And I love that, you know, through Kriya and through the practice, that I’ve really been able to lean into that aspect that I suppressed for so long, because I needed more of the masculine to survive in the world. And now I’m able to celebrate being able to lean into the feminine.
Marydale Ma: What a lovely gift.
Heather Ma: It really is. Yeah.
Marydale Ma: And finally, Heather, if I may — if you could sit beside the Heather who was struggling all those years ago from exhaustion, suffering itself, and wondering what the future held, what would you whisper into her heart?
Heather Ma: Listen. In all of that, I raged, I begged, I pleaded, I bargained. I did a lot, but I never actually just listened. And that is what I would tell anybody, including that other version of myself — that the divine is speaking to us all the time. It’s because we don’t sit quietly and listen that we just don’t hear it.
Marydale Ma: Yes.
Heather Ma: And so that would be my advice — is just to listen, just to spend time quietly listening.
Marydale Ma: Oh, that’s — that is wisdom, and that is grace. And I think that is a beautiful note to conclude our chat today, Heather. And on behalf of the Women’s Sangha and Ministry of Kriya Yoga, I want to thank you, and really thank you from the bottom of my heart, for the grace that you have brought on this day to open your heart so honestly.
Heather Ma: Thank you so much.
Marydale Ma: And for reminding us that transformation rarely arrives in the way we expect, and the quiet assurance that no experience is ever wasted when placed in God’s hands. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Heather. It has truly been a blessing.
Heather Ma: Thank you, Jai Guru. Thank you.
Marydale Ma: Jai Guru. And speaking of Guru, I’d like to share these beautiful words from our Guruji Baba that he wrote in the Ten Commandments of Yoga. Those who offer everything they have, whether good or bad, to God, thinking, nothing belongs to me — my body is your gift to me, my breath is your blessing, this look is your look, and when tears stream down my face, they are your tears.
Nothing belongs to me. They are the ones who have truly surrendered and become free of their egos. Couldn’t be said any better than that, and it dovetails with our conversation. We’re so appreciative of that. And I feel that those words directly reflect Heather’s journey. And may each of us know that true freedom is found not in controlling life, but in offering our lives completely back to God.
So with those words of wisdom, may — my heartfelt thanks to you for joining us today. If this conversation has touched your heart, we invite you to share it with someone who may need a little hope, encouragement, or inspiration. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on your favorite podcast platform, so you won’t miss future conversations celebrating the beauty, the wisdom, the courage, and the spiritual journeys of women from around the world.
Until we meet again then, may your breath remind you of God’s presence. May your heart always remain open in grace. May your life become an offering of love, and may you continue to live in joy. Jai Guru.
